Bonus Episode: Big Sexy Chat Joins Fat and Fucked

Speaker 1: 0:10

Thanks for joining us for another episode of Fat and Thought where fat sex and fat justice collide with your fat and fabulous toast, me, susie Hooker and Dr Kristen Auber. We talk about a lot of things that could be and really should be upsetting for listeners, but we don't know everyone's stories or when the things we talk about switch from uncomfortable to traumatic, since everyone's different and we don't want to decide for people what is traumatic and what isn't. We won't be giving trigger warnings during our discussions. Please monitor your own internal reactions and take care of yourself. When needed, fast forwarding or taking a break could be useful strategies. Also, inclusivity is important to us and we make efforts to have representative voices, use inclusive language and acknowledge an account for marginalization and systemic oppression, and we're both lower middle age, cisgendered, able-bodied, fat white fems, so there may be things that we miss or times when we say things that reflect our privilege. We're trying to walk the line of being inclusive of everyone, while also acknowledging that folks who are held to feminine gender norms experience the brunt of anti-fatness. The communication channels are always open. If you hear something that doesn't sit well with you, we really do care about your feedback. With that, we hope you enjoy this episode of Fat and Fucked. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Fat and Fucked, where fat sex and fat justice collide. We are so thrilled to have with us today both of the co-hosts from Big Sexy Chat. Alright, our next guest is Murph she-her. She's a co-host of Big Sexy Chat two rad fatties unapologetically sitting around chewing the fat. She's a licensed therapist, oversees a behavioral health program and recently started a leadership cohort in addition to the podcast. Murph is a pop culture fanatic and she's located in the Bay area of California. Murph, will you tell us what your favorite?

Speaker 2: 2:07

fall food is my favorite. Fall food has to be soups. I just love all the soups. Give me all the soups, especially if I can dunk bread like crusty bread into it. Oh, it's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 2:20

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 2:21

Now that's a sound bite if I've ever heard one. Give me all the soups.

Speaker 1: 2:26

And we have Crystal she-her the other co-host of Big Sexy Chat. She was initially inspired to create the podcast and then convinced Murph. Crystal works in professional hair removal and has a side hustle helping people maximizing their social media presence. She has a passion for pleasure and previously owned and ran a sex toy store, and listeners are grateful that her expertise shows up on Big Sexy Chat. On the regs, big Sexy Chat was nominated for best podcast by the Full Figured Industry Awards. Bravo, ladies. Crystal, will you tell us what your current favorite music? What music are you listening to?

Speaker 4: 3:03

I've been listening to a lot of at work. I like to. I have one of those Alexis, and I kind of toggle between Brandi Carlisle and Adele lately.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Oh, solid choices. Well, thank you all so much for taking the time to come on the podcast with us. We're super stoked.

Speaker 3: 3:20

I am so excited to have you all here today because I think of you all as our. You're the trailblazers, you're the people who came before us, you're you're the icons, and I'm just super excited that you were willing to come on to our podcast and share some airtime with us.

Speaker 1: 3:41

I am super stoked for you all to be here, because I've listened to your podcast previously and for a while now and I just absolutely love and adore what your podcasts are bringing to the podcast space. It's been such a relief on Big Sexy Chat to have fat sexuality normalized in a way that feels totally free of shame or pretense, and it's just not something I've come across very often in the world full stop period and I just have such a deep appreciation for the work you have been doing. So I am honored to be in this room with you all our predecessors.

Speaker 3: 4:20

Yes, thank you, and I will say I do appreciate. As a sex therapist, I do appreciate the way sex and intimacy and dating are sometimes gently approached and sometimes like just pounced on and beaten into submission no, not really like that, but on the show. I just think it's so important for us to talk about the intersection between fat people and fatness and the sexual aspects of our lives, because there are sexual aspects of our lives so.

Speaker 4: 4:53

I just want to say that I know we talk a lot about fat sex all of us but I know you probably have seen me write this before, and I'm sure not the only one, but I always say, yeah, fat sex like some people just call it sex. 70% of the world just calls it sex. So people say gay sex, like I think they just call it sex too.

Speaker 3: 5:14

So normalizing it. I love that, just normalizing it, that there's nothing weird about it.

Speaker 1: 5:21

So how did you all choose podcasting as your platform? What was the inspiration that kind of launched you into this sphere? Crystal, you said that you kind of were the one that had to convince Murph to jump on board for your destiny as podcast icons. Do you want to tell us where, how, you decided on podcasting?

Speaker 4: 5:45

First of all, it didn't take a lot of convincing to get.

Speaker 3: 5:47

I swear.

Speaker 4: 5:48

I barely finished the sentence and she's like, yes, so yeah, she wasn't hard to convince. So she and I met at my boutique. I used to have a boutique called Curvy Girl lingerie for about five years and I basically sold lingerie for people's size, size 12, 14 and higher, and also, you know, some romance products for us fatties although there's not a lot out there for us, there's a few and we found a few. And so also, I was podcasting about 15 years ago and I used to call my podcast Better Sex Radio and I loved it. And something we're going to talk about at Fat Con next month is that podcasting is one of the last sort of fastens of freedom where we can just say there's no FCC, say whatever you want, we can talk about whatever you want, we can use any words we want. It's just raw and no filter and no putting a soft focus on it. You know, we're just up, here, we are, this is us and so we.

Speaker 1: 6:40

This is how we feel and murph ready, just ready to jump right in as soon as crystal suggested.

Speaker 2: 6:45

it sounds like yeah, I mean, I really just I'm the kind of person where I need some, some kind of motivation to get me going. And she was like, hey, I'm thinking about this thing. And I was like, yes, let's go, let's, let's do this because I, like crystal mentioned, you know, we've known each other for over a decade and we've always kind of occupied the same group, friend groups and those sorts of things and and this opportunity, it really was like there's a chance to share with other people and, and I always think of, like the Young adult age, like you know, the, the folks that are in the early twenties, you know, just kind of like getting their grasp on what life is going to be like outside of you know, their parents, house or school or whatever, and having somebody have the concept of, hey, you don't have to have all this stuff that you have to figure out on your own here's, here's kind of the, the tricks of the trade from the get go of living in a fat body and what it's like to try to navigate that and things you're going to run into as barriers. And when she said that, I was just like, yes, because if we can target and get some of those folks out of that funk before they get stuck in it. Let's do it, and that's what we started to do.

Speaker 1: 8:04

I would love to stumble across something like that twenty five years ago. It would have changed my life so Seriously yeah, absolutely have you.

Speaker 3: 8:13

do you know by chance? Do you have any way of finding out your whether or not you're able to reach younger folks?

Speaker 2: 8:20

You know, I think our we do get some demographics and some information and I think really it's just like the goal is like if we can catch anybody to stop that process, you know but I'm just like my brain was like, yes, that kind of early age group, try to get them think. If we maybe had a tick tock, we'd probably Probably do. Well, the problem is a lot of the platforms that reach those younger demographics. Don't want you to have any conversation about fatness.

Speaker 4: 8:49

Murph, as you were talking, it brought back a memory for me because I to love the idea that we might help somebody to jump ahead. What is that? I remember in high school worrying, wondering about if I go to prom homecoming I got to find a dress. If I get invited and I can't find a dress, that's gonna be so embarrassing like I felt like that's gonna be like soul crushing and it turns out no, you cannot find all these. The back then Address for homecoming or prom. If you're fat, if you're oversized.

Speaker 3: 9:17

Ten and I'm not sure. I think it's better now, but I still think that it's a struggle. I don't remember what that statistic was, but that fat folks have 10% of the choices, the options available to us, that straight size folks have 10%.

Speaker 4: 9:35

To Susie's question about how do we know who we're helping we have a lot of reviews and we get emails and sometimes the reviews are just like I just hits you right in the feels because they're so intense and they're so Grateful and there's this makes you wanna get a little cheery. I can't. We always said we just reach one person. We've done, that's what we've been, that was our goal.

Speaker 3: 9:58

Yeah well, you've reached a lot more than one. So one of the things that I, when Susie asked me to do our podcast fat and fucked, I had to kind of waved through was where do we fit in and who are we encroaching on and that was my mindset at the time by starting a podcast there are a number of them out there already and is there a competition like it? Are we gonna be viewed sort of suspiciously, are we gonna be sus? Because we're kind of new to the field? And so I guess I wondered and I don't imagine this is gonna come to fisticuffs in this episode but what's your view on collaboration versus competition with others doing some of the similar things that you're doing?

Speaker 4: 10:46

I do not believe in competition, I only believe in co-op, addition, and I've been saying that since I worked in tech. There's seven billion people on the planet y'all. There's enough for everybody, and that includes everything in life that just. I don't compete with people, I just wanna cooperate, would be cooperative, and I wanna be, I wanna help other people. I wanna bring you know, I wanna bring them up to. I don't, I'm not worried, I can't. I hope there's 10,000 more podcasts, just like ours.

Speaker 2: 11:12

Yeah, I am. You know I'm thinking therapist world. Right, it's who you resonate with. You're gonna have a more successful therapy journey if you like your therapist. The same way, when you choose a podcast like, it doesn't have to be for everyone, it just needs to fit for some people. And there there is a lot of jealousy in the fat community there I've seen it, especially when you get into like modeling and that kind of stuff. But I think that you know really, for if we take a step back from all of that, it's about who does this person resonate with, can they get their message across and does it impact that person in a way that's positive, and so, if we look at it that way, I don't think there is a need for competition. That's just a matter of finding the right person.

Speaker 3: 11:58

I love that. I, as a recovering scarcity mindset holder, I came to the place when Susie and I were discussing the podcast getting started that if lots and lots of people start doing podcasts on fat liberation, that's what this is about inspiring people to get the word out there and have a much wider reach. And so that was kind of what did.

Speaker 1: 12:21

It was like Everybody needs to have a podcast the more fat voices the better, because we have not been hearing much from fat folks since the beginning of publicized media.

Speaker 4: 12:32

I feel like Part of our panel at that con is we're talking about why podcasting, how podcasting and I'm gonna put the offer out there to anybody who needs help. Email me. I'm happy to give you my 10 steps to starting the podcast and I'm not afraid to share with everybody. There's so many other voices out there, a lot of. I would love to hear from more voices that are People of color, people who are other marginalized identities, intersections that all that stuff you know make. I'm sure there's enough white ladies out there talking about this, but you know I'm there to be enough, so I want everybody to do it right, because I probably not. For some people. I know that that's okay and guess what, not everybody's for me either.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Yep right. Can you talk to us about some of the most challenging things you've run against while you are working to create the podcast and attract an audience or connect with an audience?

Speaker 2: 13:20

Going back to that tick tock discussion, you know, I think we we immediately jumped on every platform and created a big sexy chat for every platform. And I tell you, immediately stuff was taken down from tick tock, immediately stuff was taken down from instagram and it was just like how do you create this Brand and get this out there when you're hit just right, one after the other, with your instagram jail or your in facebook jail, or it makes the process that much more of just like I throw my hands up, I'm done, I don't want to be a part of it, but obviously we keep persevering and keep going, but there's definite barriers that make you want to just be like okay, maybe this isn't for me. This is spending. I'm spending a lot of time, I'm spending a lot of my own money and where am I getting with this?

Speaker 4: 14:08

true, all true, and I will just say this as well, and maybe not everybody knows this but social media has an issue with fat bodies because to the bots, when you see that much flesh, they think porn and so right away you know we're getting in like shadow band and in facebook jail because we're showing people of size Once you have a personal guy. Okay, yeah, this is not pornographic. Yeah, I know, because all the flesh confuses the box and that pisses me off.

Speaker 3: 14:43

I wish we could get them to help us that well, yeah, and I think it's the, it's the flesh, because they think it's porn. Then it's the word fat, because they think that there's something bullying, some kind of bullying that's happening, which it's not because it's a perfectly good word. For a lot of people it's it's when we all use here. And then there's the sex piece to and I know you all, with the big sexy chat, you do is a lot of sex content, right, and so then they think that's related to some type of porn or trafficking or something like that, and it's just, it's really hard when it's somebody else's platform, but that's what you need to use and you need to contort yourselves in order to be able to get the word out about what you're doing. We've experienced the exact same thing. So how long have you all, how long is big sexy chat been on the air? I think you started in twenty two, is that right?

Speaker 4: 15:38

Our first episode. We published a valentine's day in twenty twenty two, so this is your second year.

Speaker 3: 15:47

Nice. So you're in a bit of episodes and you've been perfecting your craft. Have you gone back to listen to some of your older episodes and how have you grown and evolved since the beginning?

Speaker 2: 16:05

We noticed we would talk over each other quite a lot. So now it's like, okay, we mute and then we raise our hand so that we know that the other wants to talk. It's all those little nuanced things you know. As you kind of go through that you start to pick up. But yeah, I mean I would make like this clicking sound with my mouth when I would start to say stuff I say absolutely way too many times because I'm trying to like yeah, I completely agree with you. So I'd be like absolutely absolutely Saying like all the time, you know there's things still that I know that we've run across, that you know tried really hard not to do. I think it's part of the nature of the business too. As we've included more people to interview, I've noticed that I get a little bit more anxious than I do when it's just the two of us. So I will. It's almost like I talk super fast, like I'm trying to, you know, make up for something. So it's just trying to regulate those things internally before starting, you know, hitting record and that sort of thing. But it's a lot, it's cringe, as the new generation would say, sometimes going oh, what was that?

Speaker 4: 17:22

Murph is being very kind. When she says we talk over each other, it's me, it's me. I get very excited. I'm like I agree with everything, yeah. And so, fortunately, our editor just tells it like, it is Ashley's like okay, over there. Well, we all, both we have that issue and we've had guests that do that before they see, talk to you and you're like, oh, but yeah, do you all know about the Wayback machine? It's a website where you can see your like old websites from like 1998 and 1999. Talk about cringe. Can't even believe I put that out there, but at the time I was like well, I have a website, it's like that. There's like these be like a Wayback machine. From podcasts we can hear the audio like oh, cringe, shit. We got to clean that up somehow. Yeah, surely help us.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Kristen, I have definitely a struggled with talking over each other because we get excited and want to interject. But the absolutely that is the thing. We had to have a discussion I counted in one episode. We have got to do something about our use of absolutely. It's constant.

Speaker 3: 18:33

Intervention. It's time for an intervention and once again it's normally me who talks over Susie, so she's very kind.

Speaker 1: 18:44

What are some particularly memorable or entertaining moments that really stand out to you about your time and your work on your pod?

Speaker 4: 18:52

Murph, tell them about our first episode. That was tricky, difficult.

Speaker 2: 18:58

So we I mean we got a special class from like these podcasters that do this all the time and own a podcasting studio. We were prepared with notes and I did my hair and I was just like I was ready, and my husband's like okay, everything's set up, you're good to go. We've checked all the levels. You know I'm leaving, he left and I go to turn on the thing and nothing works. And I was like are you kidding me? Right now? Like I'm trying to like under the computer, unplug this, unplug something back in. I've now started to sweat, so my hair is like sticking to the my you know forehead. I'm like okay, so let's try this thing. Nope, that didn't work. Okay, the only other thing I can think of is to use zoom, and so I had a zoom account for my job, and so I was like okay, can I, is there some way that I can like finagle this? And like so I had. We moved to an entirely different room for me to record. So all this like really expensive equipment that my husband bought because he's one of those people where it's like you have a, you have to have the best of everything, kind of thing Thousands of dollars of equipment. I just went in and recorded off of a little web camera thing the whole time. I'm just like Crystal's. Like do you want to do this some other time? Like she was so patient, would you like to do this? I'm like.

Speaker 3: 20:19

I get my hair.

Speaker 4: 20:20

No, it worked out just fine, but yeah it took us a couple of hours, I think, to get recording it just it was a lot, yeah, and I think he couldn't be. He couldn't be reached either because he was. I think he was like having a dinner with it was like a more serious dinner or a meeting, and he wouldn't answer any of your text messages and she's like what the hell? This is one thing after another. We finally, we finally did it. It was great and, yeah, it's been great ever since.

Speaker 3: 20:50

Who's your shoot for the stars dream person that you would love to have on your pod, and how far would you go to convince them to have them on the pod? Yeah, crystal.

Speaker 4: 21:03

My, I don't know if I speak for Murph, but Bridget Everett is like my dream and we've been trying and we have a few you know people in common and so far that hasn't helped. But you know her. People say possibly soon, you know, but it's, I'm sure she's so fricking busy. I love that lady. What about you, murph? Is that your dream goal? Dream goal.

Speaker 2: 21:28

I think Aubrey was like officially, like my, my want to get, and Bridget is a second, you know, and now that we've had Aubrey, it's like, okay, can we get Bridget? Yeah, there's just I would love to talk to Bridget. I think you know her special and the routine that she does in New York and it's just to have just to beat out there and just to be so like raw. She's just so raw. I love that about her. It just seems so authentic Everything that she puts out.

Speaker 4: 22:00

So, yeah, that would be my follow up. I think we're both drawn to people who don't give F. They just don't. I love those people that are fat and unapologetic and just don't give up To me. That's the best guess. I'll talk with them all day long. But also, I'm Gabrielle Cibode. Oh, that would be a dream guest. I love her anything she does. And yeah, michelle Bouteau is definitely on her list.

Speaker 2: 22:26

I was thinking of. You know it would be interesting to have Dr Ruth, because you know I grew up wanting to be a sex therapist. It only became just a licensed marriage family therapist, but she's. She was so the first kind of person to put it out there, just like. No, we just talk about sex Like it's a normal thing. It's a natural thing. I wonder if you know, given her advanced age, and I don't know what her ideas about body are. I think it would just be a very interesting conversation.

Speaker 1: 22:55

Yeah, I echo everything that you all have just said. You hit the top of the list with all of those, with the exception of Nicole Byer. I remember being aware of her, but when she took up pole dancing during the pandemic I just fell in love with her. I loved how she would go out there with no wig, no makeup and little teeny, tiny hot pants and get on that pole and just spin around and fall on her ass for all of us to see. So much respect and, I think, nailed. It is a hilarious baking show. So to change gears just a little bit, why is being fat, the tits? It's so great. Why is it so great?

Speaker 4: 23:37

The number one is because I would be hard to kidnap. So I always say if you can move me, you can have me. It ain't going to be easy, it's true. It's absolutely true. I'm squishy and warm. I'm fun to hug, that's what I hear that a lot from my nieces and nephews oh, you know, I love, I love hugging you. You're so warm, that's. I think that's amazing. Right, I love it. Also, I don't get hurt as easily if I fall, I just get right back up. I haven't so much padding for my bones, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:05

I think part of why it's the tits is that you take up a lot of space, so it's really hard for anybody to ignore you if you want to make whatever you need to make known. I had a situation at a restaurant the other day and walked in and was like hi, I went through the drive through. I've been sitting out there for 20 something minutes. You're going to pay attention to me now? Because they were just completely ignoring. You know, it was like this other lady was standing there same situation as me and I just kind of walked around her and was like hi, look at me, we're going to have a discussion now, you know. So it was like there's no getting around it. So I think that is one of the perks of being fat.

Speaker 4: 24:45

Also, I like the ability to be able to eat in public and not give a shit. I know you all have these friends that are. You know they're moralizing food and like, oh, I'm just going to eat halves today so I can have half tomorrow. I really need to go for a run, whatever it is that they say I'm like oh okay, you do. You and I've even had the talk with some of my friends Can we just like not, can we skip that? If you, because you kind of yuck, everybody's young at the table, and so just if that's cool, that's what you want to do, that's fine, but you don't, we don't all need to know. Just let me enjoy my food and I might be eating something healthy Air quotes. I might be eating something very decadent Air quotes. I don't give a fuck, I eat. Yes, I'm a human, I eat food, I eat food.

Speaker 3: 25:25

Yeah, I think there's. There's the being fat and then there's the owning being fat and I think both are the tits. But I will say from my own perspective, coming out as fat, recognizing that I'm fat, being okay with being fat, has given me access to a part of my personality that I think I didn't really have a way to access before, and we're like I'm allowed to say no, fuck, that we're not doing that anymore and that's not okay. That's not okay for me in my life in a way that I just don't think that I had an avenue to do that before. It's sort of this almost like counterculture rebel part of myself, and then I ended up on a podcast called fat and fucked and then it was solidified.

Speaker 1: 26:09

So well, living in fat bodies. We're already existing outside of the norm, we're already othered for it. I personally find it kind of liberating to not feel beholden to adhere to these societal standards that Most of us at some point in our lives really struggle with. I mean, I agree, I kind of think it's fun to be like fucking I'm fat, what you know it's just allowed me to like not only feel better about moving through the world, but there's a freedom of decision-making and how I Show up in the world that I didn't used to have before. I had really embraced and come out as fat.

Speaker 4: 26:50

One thing I noticed at my boutique, a lot of people were trying to find ways to camouflage their fat and I'm like, well, there's no way to hide your upper arms when you're having sex or you're being sexy, and so, like, no matter how much black clothes you wear, you think you're camouflaging yourself, but we can still see how much space you take up and I think that's when you get to the point where you like I'm gonna wear whatever fuck I want. That's like the bam. It's just changes so drastically You're not all of a sudden not trying to camouflage everything and that's really amazing and powerful feeling. Where would you want?

Speaker 2: 27:19

It's like there's no, it's it, there's no bullshit. You know, once, once you've attained that level of like, yeah, I'm not doing this because that's a some oppressive system or that's trying to make me feel bad, or whatever it is, it's like I am now free to take up space, and that may be to advocate, that may be to enlighten, that may be to. You know, just share. Whatever my opinion is. I'm no longer shrinking myself to fit whatever narrative it is that you, you know, I would like me to describe.

Speaker 3: 27:50

There's, there's freedom in that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that's why being fat is the tits. I totally agree. Hey, does anybody want to play a game?

Speaker 1: 28:03

Yeah, yeah yeah, okay.

Speaker 3: 28:06

So I thought it might be fun to Dig in to the perplexing power struggle between Capitalism and anti-fat bias or weight stigma. We talked a little bit about this in our Pre-recording conversation, but we're gonna play a game called give me all your money Unless you're fat. So I am going to name something that costs some money and you tell me whether Capitalism wins by selling us something or anti-fat bias wins by not offering something to meet the needs of fat people. Okay, everybody, clear, know what we're doing, and, susie, you can play too. It's fine. So, mattresses, who wins capitalism or anti-fat bias? I?

Speaker 2: 28:55

Got to go with capitalism. Yeah, so many, so many now. Yeah, I think that big fig has changed the game. You know, I think that that it used to be. You couldn't really focus on getting a mattress for a fat body. I remember when I was looking for a mattress about seven or eight years ago, before big fig had really kind of labeled themselves as a fat brand, it was like pulling teeth, trying to ask like how much does the bed support and how much that you know, like trying to get just those basics. So I think Previously it probably would have been an anti-fat, but I think because of brands like big fig, we we've got a change in that and it's that's a capitalist win.

Speaker 3: 29:43

Yeah, are there other brands besides big fig that focus on fat folks?

Speaker 4: 29:49

Yeah, there's two or three now and I don't I can't remember any of them, but I know there's a few more than just big fig now which is, I'm sure they all said hey, fat money, I have my fat money spends just like thin money and I have some to spend because I don't have a kid. I want to buy a nice mattress. Give me some options. I think some brands have discovered there's some options. People want more than one option for their fat mattresses.

Speaker 3: 30:10

Nice, love it. I need a new mattress. I'm not sleeping great these days, so what about? I know we that fat people, fat folks talk about this a lot. I hear about it a lot on social media, in podcast, but what about airline tickets and airline seats?

Speaker 4: 30:31

I Don't mean I only fly Southwest. I don't know about the rest of y'all. I have started on the flying.

Speaker 1: 30:36

Southwest myself.

Speaker 4: 30:38

Didn't fly for 10 years and I had reasons to, and I didn't and I was like not gonna deal with it, not until you know, till. Finally Southwest Airlines came out with that person of size policy and, yeah, I'll tell you probably I know you don't know be able to sit next to a fat person. Guess what? Now you do, because there's gonna be empty seat between the two of us.

Speaker 1: 30:56

I kind of feel like airline tickets might be where capitalism and Anti-fat bias both win, because capitalism has driven the seats to narrow and shrink so that they can pack more onto a plane, while at the same time ensuring that fat people a are either wildly uncomfortable, setting themselves up, ourselves up for humiliation, or just simply can't fly. So I think it's kind of a perfect marriage of the two.

Speaker 3: 31:25

I like that assessment. I think that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 31:26

I was gonna say that's a really good point. I I've usually only flown Southwest To fat con. Here in January I'm gonna be flying Alaska because there's a direct flight, but I the only reason I'm doing that is because I said okay, honey, we've never gone on a honeymoon up, I'm buying first-class tickets, and so you know, having to make that accommodation, just because I know, going on a plane that likely will not accommodate me, I'm gonna have to spend more money. So I agree that it's kind of the intersection of both winning.

Speaker 3: 31:58

Yeah, I. I recently had to fly from North care or had to go from North Carolina to Wisconsin and there was no direct flight on Southwest. I would have had to fly to Chicago and I just remember the emotional labor it took to work my way through to find some sort of Scenario that would feel okay for me and I ended up driving All the way up. It was 14 hours. I ended up driving. Now I in my mind, I in my mind, I made that okay with different reason. I stop and saw my sister and stuff like that, but it is just Immensely uncomfortable for fat folks to fly these days.

Speaker 4: 32:36

So I Probably sound like a broken record, but I say this a lot for people who are listening. Do not take on the guilt. You don't fit into a 15 inch wide seat. Okay, it's not our fault. They're the ones that made them this way to make more money. So they, they basically made a decision. Now let's let's make sure fat people don't fly, because nobody's butt fits in a 15 inch Seat or 17 inch seat like the average person. So don't ever feel guilty or feel bad that you need accommodations from the airline. I just tell what I was, what I need. You got to do this for me because they're making billions of dollars. Southwest makes billions of dollars profit per quarter.

Speaker 3: 33:11

All right, all right. What about plus size clothing, capitalism or anti-fat bias? Oh, these are so tricky.

Speaker 2: 33:20

I know I struggle with fat fashion in so many ways and now that there's some opportunity for fast fat fashion, it's like Not wanting to support that but also never being able to live in and those kind of clothes because they never made them. For someone of my side, you know. So it's like this constant battle back and forth of like, well, the Lane Bryant of the world are gonna give you like a moo moo that's cheetah print or has, or it's gonna have skulls on it. You know, it's like there's these very specific things that they want you to like, adhere to if you're gonna wear their clothes. But it's just, it's. It feels like you're walking through a land mine Area. You know where you're, just like, oh no, I'm going along and boom, you know there, this happens. And then I'm going along and oh, that's a cute sweater or whatever. And it's like, oh, but that's fast fashion. And then you know you're supporting that and so it's just, I don't know. I think that's one where they kind of like airlines, where they both reconvene.

Speaker 4: 34:27

When Murph was talking about it, I was thinking you guys, when I was like 12, I look like a professional. That's From Lane Bryant. People are like confused. I'm a kid, I'm not a professional.

Speaker 2: 34:48

Because I would just buy. You know, I was uncomfortable with my body so I'd buy like these stucie and mossy mo shirts with like super baggy Jean, levi, jean. So it never like fit the the feminine type, you know. Oh, it was just either a professional or a boy Like that. Was it like a 12 year old boy? I?

Speaker 3: 35:09

Remember searching for prom dresses in the mother of the bride section.

Speaker 4: 35:17

Awful. That's so f'd up, but I I feel the pain for sure. Also, I just want to throw in there. So I'm telling you fatties have to shop fast fashion Because we have like three places we can shop and do. Nobody wants to buy fast fashion but I don't have any options. So I feel like all fatties should get a break on the fast fashion Until there's a lot more where we can make choices to not my fast fashion. We don't have that option right now.

Speaker 3: 35:44

Yeah. So what about? Ouch, let's see weight loss surgery. Who wins? Capitalism or anti-fat bias?

Speaker 2: 35:53

Oh, that's anti-fat bias, thousand percent. For me, that is instructed narrative in medical school, from pharmaceutical brands, from everything that the doctor interacts with. I work in health centers so I see these people come in, I hear the things that they're talking about, and I mean my doctor currently, and Crystal and I have had this discussion multiple times. She has a script, so somebody has walked them through this process of like, okay, if they deny this, then you ask this next. If they deny that, well then you ask is there any opportunity for weight loss, of anything like in terms of a sleeve instead of amputation? Is that? Can we put the band on? Can we put you know? There's all these different things that they want to go through first and the narrative is I don't think it has really anything to do with making money. I think it really is about like, we don't want fat people, period.

Speaker 3: 36:55

That's an interesting assessment, because that was my tricky one. That was the one when I was like well, I think it's both, but I think there is something compelling about what you say, murph, about what is the ultimate motivation here. I think there is a lot of money being made and I think that they are trying to get more and more people to have weight loss surgeries. And also, what is the underlying motivation? Because they are trying to eradicate fatness and fat people.

Speaker 4: 37:23

So I asked my Kaiser doctor what is the deal? You guys getting a spiff? Are you getting like a bonus for every time you get someone to go have their stomach amputee? You get like extra hundred dollars and she goes well, crystal, that'd be unethical. Well, this is all unethical. Okay, stop asking me if I want freaking weight loss surgery. I do not. Okay, I know where to go if I want it. Okay, I'm going to go right here to Kaiser because I know you guys want me to have it so bad.

Speaker 1: 37:46

I fell for it when I was 30 and got weight loss surgery. I got the lap band and, to no one's surprise, not only did I have unfortunate complications, my teeth are destroyed, my hair fell out. I also gained all the weight back, plus some, within four years. It's like it's a racket for sure.

Speaker 3: 38:08

All right, last one Sex toys Silence.

Speaker 4: 38:15

We have a long ways to go with sex toys for fat bodies. Y'all, I'm doing my best. I'm out there trying to. What about us faties? What about those of us have larger lower tummies? They're just, it's still. It's a long ways away still, but there's a few.

Speaker 2: 38:29

Yeah, I think I think I'm going capitalist on that one. I don't think it's anti-fat, I think it's just ignorance. I think that they're they're so used to just, you know, like using the same type of people as the people that test the product. I saw this really interesting video where this lady was like did you know that there are they've never used like a real woman, sized like, with breasts and having a little belly dummy for car crash tests, and that women are more likely to die in car crashes because they've never tested a dummy, that the seat belt has to go between two boobs, like? I honestly think we're in that exact same scenario when it comes to sex toys. I don't think there's somebody who's like, hey, let's get the fatty to try this wand and see how it works. I think they're using some thin, you know perfect little person that they're just like, oh, look, it works perfectly. Not like, oh, I've got to navigate this with my smaller arms and my bigger belly and get the right angle. So I really I think it's more of a, a capitalistic thing rather than a, a fat bias.

Speaker 4: 39:36

This is a little bit off the topic, but I learned this from Tigris that you, if you're fat, you can't give your body to science, and I'm always pissed off about that. But then she's like well, let me tell you why. If you, when you die and you want to donate your body to science, they have to embalm you and adds 100 pounds to your body weight. And then if you, you know, if in medical schools all they have are just regular sized tables and regular sized things to move people and not, they've never taken into this idea that maybe a fat person wants to donate their body to science. So let's say I'm 300 pounds and they add 100 pounds of fluid Now in 400 pounds, and so they haven't been prepared to deal with larger bodies. Who I mean? What's wrong with my body? Of course I want to donate to science. Do whatever you want with it. I'm dead. If there's some something to be gained, please do it. But even in the medical schools they don't have any. They just it's yeah, I don't know, I guess it's capitalism both. And with sex toys. I think you're right, murph, it's just, they're just ignorant. They're learning, though.

Speaker 2: 40:36

I'm trying to learn them. Yeah, I want to have fat people as testers. I'm pretty sure everyone in these boxes would raise their hand and say so. It's really just pulling your heads out of your asses, folks, True that?

Speaker 3: 40:54

Thank you for being such good sports. Playing that game, we definitely played with the right people, I guess. I wonder what do we make of it? Like see hearing how you answered some of those. How do you think about that relationship between anti-fat bias and capitalism?

Speaker 2: 41:09

I think they're linked. You know, I think that's really what what it really boils down to is that you're likely, if there's one, there's going to be the other. You know, when I tell people about anxiety or depression and therapy, I'm usually like well, guess what? They're best friends and they hang out all the time together and so if you have one, don't be surprised if you start seeing symptoms of the other, you know. So I think it's very much the same kind of conversation, you know it's. It's all interwoven.

Speaker 4: 41:36

I have such a love hate relationship with capitalism. You know it's it does so many great things and does so many shitty things and yeah, it keeps us all just not able to access to all the things that we need, and it's just, I don't know. I guess I'm always so conflicted with this question.

Speaker 3: 41:52

Yeah it's. It's an uncomfortable question to think about the realities of how they work together, for sure.

Speaker 1: 42:00

So are there other needs fat people have that you don't feel like are being met in our capitalist society, that you feel particularly passionate about? Crystal, I saw your big response. Do you want to jump in?

Speaker 4: 42:13

Okay, cars, snow gear, snow gear booths and restaurants. Bicycle seats, beauty shop chair, nail foot, spa, massage table, bar stools, office chairs, banquet chairs, fanny packs, amusement parks, couches, chairs, furniture, underwear with a larger gusset Damn it yes. And when I was going to school to learn electrolysis. I couldn't. You're supposed to. You have to wear a lab coat when you go get tested. I'm like, where the hell do I find a size 30 lab coat? But people are in the medical industry that there's no, it's hard to find scrubs of your five X or six X or seven X lab coats. I mean, and you guys, I finally found a lab coat. It was so expensive and I accidentally threw it in the dumpster afterwards. I didn't mean to throw it away, but hopefully someone is getting so used out of it. It was a five X, like you know, three or $400 stupid lab coat. I had to have it. Anyway, a lot of things no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 43:02

I think that there's need for improvement on pretty much everything in terms of making it accessible for fat bodies.

Speaker 3: 43:11

Yeah, that's awesome and so kind of taking that question. These are the things that need to be changed. What are some of the changes that we can make or our listeners can make, large and small, in order to start the process of making those things more accessible? Is there anything that we can do?

Speaker 2: 43:29

Well, I think having this conversation is the start. I think, really planting that seed into people's brains, but call out the brands that don't make those accommodations. Like, point it out to them, put it on their social media, because, yeah, they're going to have some trolls or some people that comment back and say some stupid shit, but the brand is watching and so if they start hearing enough people be like, why isn't this available for fat people? Or why are you not making the society bigger, or whatever it may be that then make they have to go back and have those conversations with some sort of team, whether that be an executive team or marketing team, whatever. So if you're, if you're the person giving that feedback they're making up and I've learned this from being an executive they kind of make up their own things as to why people do the things that they do. So I think people have to just start being more vocal about these types of things.

Speaker 4: 44:26

I see a lot of pushback on fashion, like when they don't they say their size inclusive and they stop it to a 2x. Yeah people, humans don't stop at 2x, and thankful to people like Marcy Cruz and Sausie West who are out there really advocating for extended sizes beyond a 2x. I mean, I don't know about y'all, but I need a four or five X, and I think people have it in their mind. If you're five extra, probably like home and bedridden. This is, this is me. I'm just like a normal person and I'm not bedridden. Not even if I was, though, I still want fucking clothes, right.

Speaker 1: 45:01

My current pet peeve is brands that say their size inclusive and they go up to 2x or 3x, but what that really means is 16 or 18, because extra large is a 12 and they just go up from there. That won't do.

Speaker 3: 45:12

Well, we have one more question for you, suzy, you want to ask the last question?

Speaker 1: 45:17

Sure thing. How can we bring joy to the process of fat liberation?

Speaker 2: 45:23

I think that a big part of that is community and I think the way that we bring joy to liberation is finding community and engaging with other people that have at least some aspect of the experience that we've had and then can build upon it and share and try to keep people from having to go through what we've gone through and all those types of things. That's it's kind of like the silver lining to to the process. It's like, okay, you know, but I've got somebody here, right here with me, that knows and feels the same way. You know, just being around all of you and and having this conversation to me like this was joyful, I gain a lot of. It's just us having conversation of like hey, you deal with that too, yeah, me too. You know, like there's there's a there's a similar nervous similarness to that. I don't think that's a word, but that's what I was going for. Yeah that's where it's at.

Speaker 3: 46:21

I love that, crystal, you got anything to add.

Speaker 4: 46:25

I was just thinking about something that Reagan says all the time. You know, you don't owe health to anybody else. You don't owe being able body to anybody else. No matter how you exist, we should all receive respect and dignity. It doesn't matter how fat or how you know. What my body cannot do doesn't mean I'm a lesser human. So I don't just I know. Ableism, I know, is one of those things are often overlooked and I find myself sometimes not remembering that too, but then I try to run myself. Reagan was right. You know, I don't owe this anybody and I don't care who you are. If you read written, you still get to have respect and that you should still receive respect and dignity and demand it. And right, don't, don't be shy because you think oh well, whatever, you know well fat, so that's why I can't buy an airline ticket. No, it's capitalism is why you can't buy an airline ticket.

Speaker 3: 47:21

Right, and you're talking about Reagan Chastain, who writes a lot about medical weight bias right, yeah, exactly, yeah, we have come to the part of our part of our episode where we like to give our listeners something to sort of consolidate and crystallize what we talked about today, our conversation, and we call it our Liberation Integration Task, and so I'm just going to hand that out real quick to our listeners what their Liberation Integration Task is. So are you ready to start talking about that liberation, to make change in the world and make it better and more accepting for everyone, especially fat folks? What are some things that you could see yourself doing to bring about change? Do you feel okay with starting small? Are you willing to challenge yourself, to think a little bigger? Who are your allies, your people, who you can lean on for support and help? Are there any impediments that need to be addressed before you can start?

Speaker 1: 48:20

My last question is are we all best friends now?

Speaker 2: 48:23

Yes, let's go do karate in the garage.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Thank you so much for your time today. This has just been a fantastic conversation. I certainly agree that this has been a real joy, so thank you all again.

Speaker 4: 48:41

Thanks for creating this idea. I love it Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 48:45

You all are the best. Do it, go ahead, suzy. Say it, say it.

Speaker 1: 48:50

All right, as always, be fat, be fab and be free. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Fat and Fucked. Don't forget if you have burning questions about anything related to sex, sexuality and fat bodies, either email them to askdoctorsexifatatgmailcom or DM them to atfatandfuckedpod on Instagram. Christa will answer them in future episodes. For general questions or comments, send an email to fatfabfreeatgmailcom or DM us on Instagram at fatandfuckedpod. If you'd like to support the show, you can find us on Patreon at patreoncom backslash fatandfuckedpodcast, and if you like what you heard, please consider taking some time to rate, review, subscribe or recommend the podcast to a friend. It really helps us grow. Until next time, be fat, be fab and be free. That's a wrap, yeah.